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Tone Bar Orientation
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Author:  Mick Oliveira [ Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Tone Bar Orientation
I am relatively new to the forum. I have completed one guitar with the help of a local builder and now I am getting ready to build my next 2 guitars - a pair of Martin style 00-12 fret parlour guitars. I will be building these on my own. The plans that I have acquired show the standard slanted pair of tone bars but the first guitar I built had a pair of tonebars placed symmetrically on the soundboard at 90 degrees to the guitar centreline. My understanding is that Larrive pionerred the symmetrical tonebar layout that was copied by the likes of Laskin and Manzer. I am thinking about building two identical guitars with the exception of the tone bar orientation to test the impact on the guitars overall sound.

I was hoping that the forum members with experience in experimenting with alternate tone bar layouts can provide some needed insight or advice.

Thanks

Mick
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
I'm not sure what advice you're after. I say go for it. You will definitely notice a difference in overall sound between the two patterns. Particularly if you scallop the Martin style, and taper the Larrivee style...
Author:  Mick Oliveira [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
meddlingfool wrote:
I'm not sure what advice you're after. I say go for it. You will definitely notice a difference in overall sound between the two patterns. Particularly if you scallop the Martin style, and taper the Larrivee style...


Sorry if I was unclear on what I am asking. I am just looking to see if anyone has experimented with changing the tone bar layout on a 00-12 design and how it changed the overall sound of the basic design. I always try to learn from those that have already done what I am contemplating.

How does the scalloping of the Martin style and tapering of the Larrivee style tone bars affect the sound and tone of the guitar.

Remember I am a novice and will likely ask basic questions where the answers may be obvious to many.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
In a nut shell, as I see it....

The Larrivee style, and all patterns with tapered bracing, will have a more balanced sound, with the midrange modes raised in frequency.

The scalloped Martin sound, will have lower mid emphasis, resulting in the classic 'woofier' sound that Martin is famous for.

No shortage of people that enjoy the Larrivee sound. One can't discount advertising budgets in relationship to market share. From what I understand, Mark Blanchard uses more or less the same pattern as Jean....
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
Are your comments related to changes in tone bar angle/shape only or the overall bracing pattern?

meddlingfool wrote:
In a nut shell, as I see it....

The Larrivee style, and all patterns with tapered bracing, will have a more balanced sound, with the midrange modes raised in frequency.

The scalloped Martin sound, will have lower mid emphasis, resulting in the classic 'woofier' sound that Martin is famous for.

No shortage of people that enjoy the Larrivee sound. One can't discount advertising budgets in relationship to market share. From what I understand, Mark Blanchard uses more or less the same pattern as Jean....
Author:  Darryl Young [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
I too would be interested in hearing how the angle of the tone bars changes tone if anyone has played with that variable. Is it as simple as adding cross grain stiffness vs long grain stiffness? Seems there is more as it changes the location of the stiffness as well.

I'm always careful about the ends of the lower tone bar. It can end near the lower X-brace leg and between them there can be aa lot of localized stiffness. As well it can add a lot of stiffness near the perimeter of the lower bout in that area which I usually want to avoid especially on a smaller body guitar.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
Angle mostly but scalloping too. You would think that the cross tri and di poles in the Martin pattern would be both lower in pitch and higher in amplitude due to the increased flexibility in the cross direction the patterns would imply, leading to the classic low mid Martin sound. However, never having run any Chladni testing between species, my wild supposition is based on my limited comprehension of the Gore/Gilet books.

It would make for a very interesting study, I think.

What I do know, is that good sounding guitars can be made with both patterns...:)
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
I think the generalizations of pattern/tone translates across any body size.
Author:  Freeman [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
Mick, I just finished building an all mahogany 12 fret 00 with conventional angled (and deeply scalloped) tone bars. It has a wonderful woody tone that is very nicely balanced across the strings. I had considered building a twin spruce topped one in parallel to compare as best I could, the differences in tone woods, but the commission fell thru so I only made the one.

One thing to remember is that to be a truly valid test you do need to build identical twins in every other respect - the tops need to come from the same billet and have exactly the same stiffness and every other aspect of the construction needs to be identical. That may be difficult for a novice builder and there is a good chance that you will just confuse yourself.

I'll add two more anecdotes - I am one of the people who built a backwards braced 0's from the Scott Antes plans and frankly I think it sounds pretty good. It is a righty braced as a lefty - duh. I've also converted a righty OM to lefty (no change in bracing) and again, I think its a pretty sweet sounding little guitar in spite of the bracing being bass-ackwards.

I also did build two Weissenborns with different bracing patterns out of matched sets of wood - one has the normal cross tone bars and one has angled bars - there is a subtle difference in sound and frankly, everyone who hears them side by side prefers the traditional bracing for that style guitar. If I can characterize the sound, the angle braces seem very slightly more complex which is not necessarily what you want in a lap guitar.

If you build them, I will look forward to hearing clips when you are done.
Author:  ernie [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
Just as an aside from the thread, where does one get an OO 12 fret to the body plan for free. Thanks
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
Could be true for Martins. Haven't played many.

I can say that the generalization I made holds true for my guitars across all body styles, within the spectrum of freqs they produce. As in my OO with scalloped bracing has that scooped sound compared to my OO with tapered, which will have more of, as you called it, a top voiced sound. (Might steal that term). However, the plate freqs are controlled, so there is a more uniform platform for comparison.

I suppose it's possible that in a factory guitar where the plate resonances are not controlled, the randomness of results may skew the auditory perception between bracing styles. Though I would say a Martin will always sound more like a Martin and the Larrivee will sound more like a Larrivee despite the random factor, and that most people would be able to hear the difference.

At the local high end store, I was surprised by how similar the well crafted Martin style guitars sounded, including mine. That's if you consider H&D and similar guitars to be high end. That may be midrange to you.

I believe the only difference in the 50-60 series is the choice of top wood (wider grain) and the enlarged soundhole, which pushes the whole brace assembly 3mm towards the butt. I like the sound of them better too. More Martinesque...

To the OP...

The Gore/Gilet books are a very worthwhile investment. Enjoy your experiment and let us know how it goes!
Author:  bftobin [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
Hi Mick. Laskin and Manzer didn't just copy Larrivee, they learned guitarmaking from him in Toronto before he moved to Vancouver. I'm sure they have tried different patterns over the years, but symmetrical works for them. If your in the Cabbagetown area some day, drop in on Linda Manzer's shop. She's a wonderful person to talk with and will give you some answers if she's not too busy.

Brent
Author:  Mick Oliveira [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
bftobin wrote:
Hi Mick. Laskin and Manzer didn't just copy Larrivee, they learned guitarmaking from him in Toronto before he moved to Vancouver. I'm sure they have tried different patterns over the years, but symmetrical works for them. If your in the Cabbagetown area some day, drop in on Linda Manzer's shop. She's a wonderful person to talk with and will give you some answers if she's not too busy.

Brent


Brent, I meant Linda no disrespect. I actually met her at the ASIA symposium this year and agree she is a great person. When I used the term copy, I didn't mean it in a derogatory way. At the symposium she actually told me she learned this bracing pattern from her early days as an apprentice with Larrivee where she worked alongside Laskin, De Jonge, and Wren. Perhaps I should have stated what I did in a different way. When I get some more builds and experience under my belt I hope to meet with her again. I appreciate your clarification nevertheless. :)
Author:  Mick Oliveira [ Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tone Bar Orientation
I want to thank everyone for their comments and insights. They are most helpful. I'm looking forward to hear the differences in the two 00-12 guitars that I will soon be building.
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